Curse

floppinghog · Nov 15, 2005, 04:36 PM // 16:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mahanaxar

Nobody is answering a simple question.

Why is PvE supposed to be like PvP?
If I want smart PvP enemies, i go in tombs, arenas or gvg.
In CA i need 30 secs only to face people moving out of aoe (and not running like chickens from a fireball

).

because they havnt made the connection of skill unlocking + use in pvp/pve

I guess because of the "realistic" graphics monsters had to be "realistic" to the point as being as smart as a human, that of which they are not. Therefore....They are not supposed to be smart.

I hope everyone has noticed they run from any consecutive damage attack without almost 3 seconds dividing time or so. Something like that for almost any spell and a skill that does DoT in an area or while active on you. Basically its like guild lord damage over time limited. Except its extreme for ALL monsters. Which really is bullshit

internetguy · Nov 15, 2005, 04:48 PM // 16:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mahanaxar

Nobody is answering a simple question.

Why is PvE supposed to be like PvP?
If I want smart PvP enemies, i go in tombs, arenas or gvg.
In CA i need 30 secs only to face people moving out of aoe (and not running like chickens from a fireball

).

I think I did mention several time before why PVE should not be the same as PVP.

In PVP, is equal number of real people on each side against each other, and they are at the same level of IQ (human IQ).

In PVE, is foes (monsters) are in a large quantity in the area, but their IQ (AI) is lower than human players. In the other hand, human players are in a limited group (max 8), the only way human players can win is their higher intelligence. This is a very fundamental concept of PVE game design.

Also If the monsters will fight like a human player, human player will lose for sure, first is because human players have been outnumbered, second is the human player can not react as fast as the computer, not even mention computer can multi-tasking.

Wyndy Walker · Nov 15, 2005, 05:01 PM // 17:01

While I understand those who are dedicated gamers are all up in arms over those who are more casual gamers dislike of the changes I find it interesting that there is no room for compromise. You either agree with the changes or you are a big baby boo hooing. Now that's really constructive and mature. Anyway,
it seems there should be some way to accommodate both. Perhaps making more challenging areas/quests for those who want them with killer monsters and wipe them off the map if they sneeze wrong challenges, even giving them uber drops and areas where those of us who prefer pve can play there. I liked the idea someone stated of
allowing pvp players to build their characters there and not have to do it in pve. While I am now coming to understand that you are trying to blend both types of players in this game it would seem that that is not working for the most part, and you are creating a chasm that is becoming unworkable between the two factions. I also highly suspect that since most people have a life outside of GW the casual player will make up more of your sales base.

I also find it curious all this talk about the poll. Every time I have logged on here an looked at it the majority it's been the don't like group ahead.. 35.64% +16.83=52.46 at the time I am writing this are in the camp don't like the update...24.37+17.14=41.51 do like the update where are all these folks getting that the majority is liking it. Not to mention all the complaining going on in the towns on GW. LOL sounds alot like american political spinning to me.

Course your mileage may vary

Keyote · Nov 15, 2005, 05:03 PM // 17:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by GWGuru

Why is PvE supposed to be a boring, uninteresting, skill-lacking grind?

If thats how you feel about PvE (and I'm not saying you're wrong), then you're talking about PvE in any game like this.

Lets face it, AI is inferior to us and we'll always find ways to beat it. If they were able to make it smart enough that each fight was a challenge then they'd have to do something about things crawling out of the ground every 5 steps in the desert and insanely high health, damage and numbers with mobs.

While I can appreciate a good fight, I dont find it particularly fun trying to get from A to B if Anet makes every single fight take longer. Combined with the fact many areas give almost no decent drops to keep some interest in the battles along the way, all we'll actually end up doing is having long (challenging if they do pull it off) fights with the same mobs over and over again for the sake of it.

I dont see many people saying "LFG to have fun killing mobs". Thats not what keeps players interested. You need a purpose like loot, and you dont want to spend ages getting nowhere fast doing it.

Loviatar · Nov 15, 2005, 05:06 PM // 17:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mahanaxar

Nobody is answering a simple question.

Why is PvE supposed to be like PvP?
If I want smart PvP enemies, i go in tombs, arenas or gvg.
In CA i need 30 secs only to face people moving out of aoe (and not running like chickens from a fireball

).

so what you want is basically a shooting gallery where you stand behind a protective wall taking no damage while raining dearh from above in the form of the tripple crown of fire?

firestorm followed by searing heat followed by meteor shower while not getting a scratch

when they fix the rest of the AI so the skeleton rangers follow you around a corner still shooting poison arrows into you instead of the wall what will you do?

GWGuru · Nov 15, 2005, 05:07 PM // 17:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keyote

If thats how you feel about PvE (and I'm not saying you're wrong), then you're talking about PvE in any game like this.

Lets face it, AI is inferior to us and we'll always find ways to beat it. If they were able to make it smart enough that each fight was a challenge then they'd have to do something about things crawling out of the ground every 5 steps in the desert and insanely high health, damage and numbers with mobs.

While I can appreciate a good fight, I dont find it particularly fun trying to get from A to B if Anet makes every single fight take longer. Combined with the fact many areas give almost no decent drops to keep some interest in the battles along the way, all we'll actually end up doing is having long (challenging if they do pull it off) fights with the same mobs over and over again for the sake of it.

I dont see many people saying "LFG to have fun killing mobs". Thats not what keeps players interested. You need a purpose like loot, and you dont want to spend ages getting nowhere fast doing it.

so why not just remove the mobs from the game entirely. Just put mobs in the missions. You obviously don't want to have actually have to pay attention while running from A to B so wouldn't it just be better to have nothing out there?

quickmonty · Nov 15, 2005, 05:07 PM // 17:07

Let's see if I have this straight. Typical tactics. Warrior's draw aggro but don't have the firepower to kill higher level mobs. So .... spell casters do their thing to add to damage. Mobs now break aggro and withdrawl to return in a few seconds to attack casters, not warriors.

So ..... why bother taking warriors in groups anymore. ROFL!

Magpie · Nov 15, 2005, 05:08 PM // 17:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by internetguy

I think I did mention several time before why PVE should not be the same as PVP.

In PVP, is equal number of real people on each side against each other, and they are at the same level of IQ (human IQ).

In PVE, is foes (monsters) are in a large quantity in the area, but their IQ (AI) is lower than human players. In the other hand, human players are in a limited group (max 8), the only way human players can win is their higher intelligence. This is a very fundamental concept of PVE game design.

Also If the monsters will fight like a human player, human player will lose for sure, first is because human players have been outnumbered, second is the human player can not react as fast as the computer, not even mention computer can multi-tasking.

However that is not a plausible argument to keep the AI at a low level. As it currently stands to balance the odds of low computer intelligence against humans they have to stack the odds against you with stronger mobs in greater numbers. It's only this way to counter the limitation of current AI.

To me it makes much more sense to improve the AI and reduce the number and strength of mobs where ever possible. It makes for a much better game. I don't want a dumb opponent that I can guarantee to beat with the right setup. That applies for PvE more so than PvP. Beating a poor PvP opponent at least leaves with the knowledge I bested someone. Who gives a monkeys if you beat a poor computer opponent. Yawn!!!

Keyote · Nov 15, 2005, 05:18 PM // 17:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by GWGuru

so why not just remove the mobs from the game entirely. Just put mobs in the missions. You obviously don't want to have actually have to pay attention while running from A to B so wouldn't it just be better to have nothing out there?

Don't be rediculous. I'm just saying people dont play the PvE game for drawn out PvP type fights with every spawn they come across. It works the same in every MMORPG around. Mobs are there to give xp, drop loot, provide something to do along the road etc.

As I said, making them more challenging is fine, but it needs to be in balance with their numbers, strength and the reward.

internetguy · Nov 15, 2005, 05:29 PM // 17:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magpie

However that is not a plausible argument to keep the AI at a low level. As it currently stands to balance the odds of low computer intelligence against humans they have to stack the odds against you with stronger mobs in greater numbers. It's only this way to counter the limitation of current AI.

Sounds like you had never died in PVE before the patch. Just try to remember how many people get stuck in Thunderhead Keep, and how many foes you have seen are level 28.

Magpie · Nov 15, 2005, 05:30 PM // 17:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keyote

Mobs are there to give xp, drop loot, provide something to do along the road etc.

Something I consider a fundamental flaw with MMORPG design. I don't want this type of grind battle. I want knife edge battles. But I agree with the following part.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keyote

making them more challenging is fine, but it needs to be in balance with their numbers, strength and the reward.

I would much rather fewer, cleverer battles than a wall to wall grindfest.

Magpie · Nov 15, 2005, 06:07 PM // 18:07

Sorry to double post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by internetguy

Sounds like you had never died in PVE before the patch. Just try to remember how many people get stuck in Thunderhead Keep, and how many foes you have seen are level 28.

That’s my whole point. The foes are lvl 28 because they’re stupid. If the AI was better they wouldn't need to be as strong. I have died many many times in PvE and will do again. If the increased intelligence means that further balancing is needed to the mob sizes and strengths and to the costs and stats of AoE attacks so be it. Much better that than keep the AI dumb.

I have seen good arguments saying AoE attacks are now weaker and good arguments saying if used in a certain ways are now stronger. Time will tell and hopefully ANet will make the appropriate stat adjustments. But please, please don't roll back to dumber AI.

internetguy · Nov 15, 2005, 06:49 PM // 18:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magpie

Sorry to double post.

That’s my whole point. The foes are lvl 28 because they’re stupid. If the AI was better they wouldn't need to be as strong. I have died many many times in PvE and will do again. If the increased intelligence means that further balancing is needed to the mob sizes and strengths and to the costs and stats of AoE attacks so be it. Much better that than keep the AI dumb.

I have seen good arguments saying AoE attacks are now weaker and good arguments saying if used in a certain ways are now stronger. Time will tell and hopefully ANet will make the appropriate stat adjustments. But please, please don't roll back to dumber AI.

Actually, I do not get your point. That is what I have understood so far; you want low level and higher AI foes, but bottom-line, do you want all the foes to be killed easily or not?
BTW, most of time, all the foes are not group together and let you nuke the crap hell of them before the patch, they are standing in different areas, and one Fire Storm, and Meteor Shower can not cover them all in one battle, even for those ones been cover, in high level, one Meteor Shower won’t kill them.

I remember before this patch, Anet already increased the AI for most of the foes. For example, trolls were not only argo the Warriors any more, but they are also argo the monks and eles.

This patch (Nov. 10th) had been implemented poorly; my point is not about if the AI should be increased for the monsters or not, is about Anet didn’t actually have proper test for this patch (Nov. 10th) before it had been released: First, so many players are upset about this patch (see the poll and the petitions). Second, there was a patch (Nov. 11th) right after that to adjust the AI issue in the previous patch (Nov. 10th)… If the developer need to release a new patch the fix the previous patch in 24 hours, it is quite screw up.

XvArchonvX · Nov 15, 2005, 09:38 PM // 21:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by iggk

i dont remeber seeing anyone say there totaly usless just that the effect of AOE is no longer worth the cost.
rough example before update 15 cost AOE dealt 200 total damge to each enemy in area
post update
15 cost AOE does 15 damage and causes enemy to scater for 4 seconds resulting in increase in aggro bigger mob comes in hit with mybe 15 more dmg and scatters again causing yet more aggro after the third or forth scater and regroup of the enemy the aggro has more than doubled and you have delt mybe 30 dmg total to each enemy

please explain how this is still worth the cost of AOE's

and dont forget the effect is still present if your have 0 attributes in said AOE and deal 0 damage, now how is that increased AI ?

*sigh* it's like people are too busy vrying about the update to even formulate a decent strategy about the whole thing.

First thing, not all AoE spells cost a lot of mana. For example, let's take the W/Mo, since it seems to be the popular build. First of all, use Symbol of Wraith, to make the enemy run, then use protector's strike or Bull's Strike to pull out the extra dmg.

Second of all, scattering a group of enemies doesn't necessarily aggro a bigger group if you pull em away from other enemies. This leads to my third point.

Use slowing/crippling skills!!! Come on, how hard was it to think of that? Imagined Burden or trap the enemies that you pulled away from the larger groups with Barbed Trap to cripple em, then use Meteor Shower to cause massive dmg and knock em down to slow them even more.

Personally, I think a lot of people are blowing this update way out of proportion. GW is a game that makes it easy to adjust and change your build to suite your battle. The world isn't over if the build you are using isn't completely dominating anymore. Maybe this is your chance to see that some of those skills that you blew off before (ex. most stuff in air/water/earth magic) do have some use.

Mahanaxar · Nov 15, 2005, 09:44 PM // 21:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

*sigh* it's like people are too busy vrying about the update to even formulate a decent strategy about the whole thing.

First thing, not all AoE spells cost a lot of mana. For example, let's take the W/Mo, since it seems to be the popular build. First of all, use Symbol of Wraith, to make the enemy run, then use protector's strike or Bull's Strike to pull out the extra dmg.

Second of all, scattering a group of enemies doesn't necessarily aggro a bigger group if you pull em away from other enemies. This leads to my third point.

Use slowing/crippling skills!!! Come on, how hard was it to think of that? Imagined Burden or trap the enemies that you pulled away from the larger groups with Barbed Trap to cripple em, then use Meteor Shower to cause massive dmg and knock em down to slow them even more.

Be realistic please. How much time to do long missions like THK with brilliant strategies like these?
I'm talking about occasional pug players, wich are the biggest percentage.

internetguy · Nov 15, 2005, 09:57 PM // 21:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mahanaxar

Be realistic please. How much time to do long missions like THK with brilliant strategies like these?
I'm talking about occasional pug players, wich are the biggest percentage.

True, that's why we have a poll here, and hope Anet reads.

BTW, I think the other reason for this patch is because Anet may not have enough resources to support the whole infrastructure, due to GW is a free on-line game (no monthly fee like WoW etc), so they are using this patch to piss off some of the players in order reduce the amount of people log in. Reason for this accusation is I have not log in at all after test the Nov. 11’s patch, and most of my guild mates had not been logged in at all. Well, this is just my very personal view, and do not have any thing to support it. And I just want to blah it out that is all.

4runner · Nov 15, 2005, 11:14 PM // 23:14

well my only gripe is the fact that the mobs aggro other mobs when using aoe skills, or those darn henchman aggro everything in site.. Help 60dp!!!!

quickmonty · Nov 15, 2005, 11:41 PM // 23:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by internetguy

True, that's why we have a poll here, and hope Anet reads.

BTW, I think the other reason for this patch is because Anet may not have enough resources to support the whole infrastructure, due to GW is a free on-line game (no monthly fee like WoW etc), so they are using this patch to piss off some of the players in order reduce the amount of people log in. Reason for this accusation is I have not log in at all after test the Nov. 11’s patch, and most of my guild mates had not been logged in at all. Well, this is just my very personal view, and do not have any thing to support it. And I just want to blah it out that is all.

Good point. They already have your money .... what can you do about it?

Darkest Dawn · Nov 15, 2005, 11:51 PM // 23:51

Just a side note... peeps who vote, please remember the poll was on the update before they patched it....

I wasn't too keen before the patch, but now am mostly cool with it...

/back to whatever, lol

Theos · Nov 15, 2005, 11:53 PM // 23:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by quickmonty

Let's see if I have this straight. Typical tactics. Warrior's draw aggro but don't have the firepower to kill higher level mobs. So .... spell casters do their thing to add to damage. Mobs now break aggro and withdrawl to return in a few seconds to attack casters, not warriors.

So ..... why bother taking warriors in groups anymore. ROFL!

Well if your blind enough to not see that a warrior can be far more than a tank, then sure why the hell use warriors all they can do is tank right? Tunnel vision is never the best way to start an argument or even uphold one. A warrior can virtually keep one or two units pinned down indefinatly, then deal large non-scatter AoE single damage. Also a warrior will be able to outlast most casters and will be able to pull a group out of a tough situation, be it by running or taking the beating while the casters move around avoiding, lets say, berserkers. Warriors have alot of purposes beyond just being tanks... thank you for stereotyping 1/5 of the game.

As for the money and what not issue, no company does self destructs, that is just pointless and will end up costing more money. Anet may have made money and done what? Payed off their debt and given a stable salary to the people who made the game. They have nothing to gain in losing players, and the only reason to say such a thing is to make yourself feel justified.

As to the player base, I have seen no noticable decline. FoW and UW pugs have gotten actually good

and some missions (like THK) have actually become interesting again (gasp! I can't wall the stairs and nuke anymore!). The negative change from this is some bugs, such a chaotic running and the large entropy increase but those things get fine tuned (like faction). The other negative? All those cookie cutter just got thrown out and see real variety

... heck I even recruit the reaper while in UW now because people finally realise how potent a level 30 water mage is

Oh wait... that last bit is positive...